Is the Packers’ Glass Half Empty Or Half Full?

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Players, coaches, the media and most often the fans like to say “every season that didn’t include a Super Bowl Victory is a failure”.  I get the sentiment, as long as your team wins the Super Bowl, everything is forgiven; it doesn’t matter how many mistakes were made or how many games were lost, as long as your team takes the Lombardi trophy at home, everything else is forgiven.  However, this is really a shortsighted assessment of any team’s season; would anyone argue that the Kansas City Chiefs and the Houston Texans had equally failed seasons because neither will win the Super Bowl this year?  Of course not, the Chiefs saw a massive rebound from the worse record in 2012 to one of the best and saw jumps in all analytics to boot.  On the other hand, the Texans were predicted by many pundits to be a Super Bowl contender but lost 15 games in a row and saw their head coach fired mid-season.  Furthermore, fans of the New England Patriots can realistically expect to be in contention for a Super Bowl every year for the foreseeable future, but the same cannot be said for the Oakland Raiders, who are still in the middle of a massive rebuilding process; getting into the playoffs but not the Super Bowl might be considered a failure for the Patriots, but just getting into the playoffs should be considered a successful season for the Raiders.

All that basically points back to the 2013 Packers; should we consider this season a success or a failure?  Or more realistically, do you see the Packers season as a glass half empty or a glass half full?

The Packers were an average team (8-7-1)

Glass half empty: The Packers took a major nose dive this season after posting a 11-5 season in 2012, 15-1 season in 2011 and winning the Super Bowl in 2010.  Especially in the middle of the season it looked like the team was lost and without a goal as they were man handled by the Eagles, Giants and most notably the Lions.  The defense again fell apart and the Packers were forced to learn how to run the ball behind Eddie Lacy, which didn’t happen overnight.  Hell, they couldn’t even truly beat the Minnesota Vikings who threw Christian Ponder back in a quarterback.  Finally, the Packers again proved that they are incapable of beating the 49ers with the 3rd consecutive loss.

Glass half full: The team handled adversity and found a new balanced identity, which will be a huge advantage in the future.  Arguably, any team whose built around a star quarterback will suffer greatly when they are injured, even on defense.  In the end, the Packers were humbled by some very bad losses but also had some great comebacks, most notably Matt Flynn’s gritty 2nd half win against the Cowboys and the last minute score from Aaron Rodgers to Randall Cobb in Chicago.  The Packers have gotten better and better against the 49ers; last year’s playoff loss was an embarrassment for everyone involved while the season opener was a team that got beaten because they hadn’t found their identity yet.  Last weeks loss was a much better game where it took a last minute field goal by the 49ers to win the game; the defense was considerably better this time around and the offense managed to get into a rhythm in the 2nd half.

The Packers are nothing without Aaron Rodgers

Glass half empty: The Packers were atrocious when Rodgers went down and even worse had no plan B; Graham Harrell showed no improvement and didn’t even make it through pre-season, Vince Young was one dimensional and didn’t understand the offense, Seneca Wallace showed nothing to prove he was a even a viable backup and Scott Tolzein might have promise but was definitely not ready for the spotlight.  Even Matt Flynn was borderline terrible, losing 3 games and racking up 5 interceptions.  For a team with a long history of grooming quarterbacks staffed by QB gurus like Mike McCarthy and Tom Clements, quarterback development should not have been an issue

Glass half full: There never is truly a plan B for any team with a star quarterback; if you look around the league, Drew Brees’ backup is Luke McCown, Peyton Manning’s backup is Brock Osweiler and Tom Brady’s backup is Ryan Mallet.  Basically you have two guys who have thrown a collective 28 passes in their entire careers and a guy whose been on 4 different teams with a career QB rating of 68.  Outside Joe Montana/Steve Young and Brett Favre/Aaron Rodgers, no team has had two superstar quarterbacks on their roster in the modern era. Also any team that’s lucky to have a star quarterback will mold the team to maximize that quarterback’s potential.  Considering that the Packers offense contains a lot of quarterback movement and longer developing routes, I’m not sure Peyton Manning would be all that successful in the Packers offense; now if you think Peyton Manning is going to have issues what can you really expect from Scott Tolzein?

Injuries plagued the season again

Glass half empty: Again the Packers suffered a spate of injuries to key players; Aaron Rodgers essentially missed half of the season while Randall Cobb missed even more.  Perhaps most scary is what happened to Jermichael Finley, who might have ended his career in Cleveland.  Add to that Clay Matthews recurrent hand injury that basically ruined his performance, Nick Perry’s up and down season with a leg injury and Casey Hayward never really even getting to play, people often forget that Bryan Bulaga was supposed to be the left tackle this year but was injured during family night and who knows what’s going on with Derek Sherrod at this point.  This team is obviously injury bugged and the strength and conditioning staff should be fired.

Glass half full: Injuries are part of the game of football; who are you going to blame for the freak injuries the Packers were dealt?  Could anyone have prevented Jermichael Finley’s injury?  He was just hit at a funny angle and hit the ground the wrong way.  How about Randall Cobb’s injury?  Perhaps you can blame Matt Elam for going low but then again even Cobb thinks it wasn’t intentional and Elam has claimed he was following league rules by trying to avoid the head.  Injuries are overall statistically random, some teams end up relatively healthy while other teams get hit by injury after injury.  The Packers had an the most injured team in 2010, one of the healthiest in 2011 and were sort of in the middle for 2012, only Packers fans only have an emotional investment in the Packers hence Packers injuries seem to occur more often.  As far as I’m concerned, the only time a team can be blamed for an injury is not doing due diligence during the draft and getting an already injured player (see Justin Harrell) and cases like Tampa Bay where the facility caused a MRSA outbreak.

The defense was terrible again

Glass half empty: The biggest concern for the Packers last offseason was the the terrible defense and not being able to run the ball and the Packers only solved one of the problems.  The Packers had the 30th ranked defense in the league according to Football Outsiders, ranking 28th against the run and 30th against the pass.  Add to that a lack of consistent pass rush with Clay Matthews, Nick Perry and Mike Neal all in and out of the lineup and a severe digression in the performance of Morgan Burnett and it’s pretty obvious to see why the defense suffered again.  Dom Capers has again shown that he hasn’t lived up to the “mad scientist” persona that has followed him around and its obvious that he’s gotten too old for the game.

Glass half full: Again the defensive collapse likely has something to do with the loss of Aaron Rodgers.  The Packers were actually pretty average before Rodgers broke his collarbone, ranking 18th in defense again according to Football Outsiders; while we aren’t talking about the Seattle Seahawks defense, an average defense coupled with the Packers offense would have been more than dangerous enough to make a serious run into the playoffs.  The real reason why quarterbacks are so important in the NFL is that the quarterback influences every aspect of the game, even on defense.  Aaron Rodgers can help the defense by not giving the ball away, thus giving the defense more time to rest and he can help by getting yardage and forcing the other offense to make longer drives.  He can also force offenses to be one dimensional when the are forced to play catch up and also demoralize the opponent’s defense which will rub off on the rest of the team (see the playoff game in Atlanta in 2010).  As for Capers, while some of the blame does fall on play calling, missed tackles and more importantly miscommunication are not the fault of the defensive coordinator, it is the fault of the players.

 

Personally, I think whether you see the Packers’ glass as half empty or half full is more on your own perspective rather than any rating of the Packers.  If you are the type of fan who thinks the Packers should dominate the NFL like you dominate Madden, then I’m pretty sure you fall into the category that this season was half empty.  If on the other hand, you felt like this team showed a lot of character late in the season and managed to pull themselves out of a hole and miraculously get into the playoffs then you probably think the glass was half full.  In truth, as with most things, probably falls somewhere in the middle, the Packers glass was never half full nor half empty, it’s what you make of it.

 

 

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Thomas Hobbes is a staff writer for Jersey Al’s AllGreenBayPackers.com.

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  • http://jersyal.com tim

    I think you have look at the positive. We’re fortunate, we’ve got a pretty good team trying to get to a higher level. Our offense should keep clicking if everyone can stay healthy. QWe need to figure out why so many injuries the past couple of years. The also need more than a speed bump for a defense. They need one that stops teams, create turnovers, contribute to wins rather than just hanging on.

  • Chris V

    I’d also argue that the QB impacts the defensive performance because of how the opponent’s offense will attack. The other team can afford to take more risks on offense if the opponent doesn’t have a QB that can make them pay for mistakes.

    • Thomas Hobbes

      I agree, while everything is interconnected, there is a huge impact on defense based on the quarterback. It’s also pretty interesting to note that the majority of really good defenses over the past couple years have had mediocre quarterbacks behind them; sure every once in a while there is a team like SF where both are good but more often than not its the 2002 Buccaneers

  • Brandt Olsen

    I liked what McCarthy said at his presser. The offense was really starting to roll and the defense was playing good. If Rodgers doesn’t get hurt they’re 13-3 or 12-4 with a first round bye. If they can keep their offense in tact for next year they’ll keep on rolling.

    • Jim Reuther

      Someone please put MM on an Espresso IV! They had all last season to prepare a defense to negate SF’s offense. Failed miserably TWICE. Continued to get gashed on the outside by the better teams. The defensive secondary was horrible from the get-go and never improved their safety play. Other than Shields and a half season from Tramon. the rest were beyond horrid. Whitt has to be the worse position coach ever. MM really knows how to double-down on dumb!

      • Dave D

        Amen Jim,

        Hearing all these injury excuses but D got gash and embarrassed by SF on opening day. No injuries yet. Then vs. Bengals, Packers were leading 30 -13 mid 3rd quarter and D fell apart. The game that Rogers got hurt all the D had to do was come up big and win.

        But they laid an egg and came up small.

        Bye Bye Dom!

        • Dobber

          “Hearing all these injury excuses but D got gash and embarrassed by SF on opening day. No injuries yet.”

          Hayward’s injury hampered this team all year. Hyde and at times Williams were decent slot corners, but who is to say that the added depth of Hayward at CB wouldn’t have helped to hold Boldin down in that first game?

          • Sven

            Or Burnett who was also out for that game.

        • Ed Schoenfeld

          Opening day the defense had no Johnny Jolly, no Morgan Burnett, no Mike Neal, and no Casey Hayward. Than’t down 3 starters and the preferred nickel CB.

          No injuries on opening day? Only if you completely ignore the injuries that happen during the preseason.

          • Dave D

            Burnett is horrible, so no great loss. Hayward is unproven, so he had 6 Ints last year, big whoop.

            Neal is not a big time playmaker.

            Lack of talent my brother, lack of talent. Not injuries.

            • Thomas Hobbes

              Burnett did not have the best season by any means, but he was still the best safety that Packers had. I know that’s not saying much, but McMillian didn’t even get to the end of the season before being cut so just because Burnett wasn’t the best doesn’t mean his absence didn’t cost the team.

        • Nopainnogain

          Defense was dominating Bengals until Matthews got injured in the first half

          • Jim Reuther

            The bottom line: when the D was asked to make a stop in 3 games, they couldn’t do it. The opposing team ran out the clock with 5-9 minutes remaining. Was there ever containment on the edges all season? Even Kevin Greene must take some of the responsibility for his charges taking the wrong inside route repeatedly. How often do these kinds of mistakes have to occur before accountability takes place?

            • Dave D

              Funny how when confronted with a truthful post they get more dislikes than likes.

              Right on Jim,

              Just stay in your gap and do your freaking job. No contain all year, awful.

              • Dobber

                “Funny how when confronted with a truthful post they get more dislikes than likes.”

                I’m not sure what a “truthful post” is…there are posts we agree with and posts we don’t agree with. Well-supported opinion/interpretation and poorly-supported opinion/interpretation. But truth?

            • Tundraboy

              You can not play defense, especially against today’s offenses without fast LB’s and physical safety play. Our strongest units, overall talent wise are CB and D line, and even then on any given week someone was always hurt. Eventually it falls apart and we are totally exposed up the middle as we were. No other explanation for never getting 3rd down stops. We basically have one elite OLB , and only ONE! decent LB, and he is slow!! We have noone to cover the whole middle and length of the field. Noone we played as if there are no safeties, hope they realize this now

      • Thomas Hobbes

        I don’t know if I would say they failed miserably twice, watch the playoff game last year and then watch the playoff game this year; you can’t tell me you didn’t see an improvement.

    • Shavager

      Oh, please, no way this team can be 13-3 with a defense that could only beat Redskins, Vikings and Bears WITH Aaron Rodgers playing. The REAL truth is–IF Packers had played in west or south divisions, the would’ve finished 3rd AT BEST and possibly 4th. Credit Matt Flynn for stepping up and getting 2 victories and a TIE, ironically a TIE that gave them division victory over Bears and a playoff spot, since Bears won ’63 Western Conference title over Packers based on TIE, ironically WITH VIKINGS! Packers can compete with Niners, Hawks, Panthers, Saints on offense–their defense can’t stop any of those teams from being able to outscore them. That hasn’t changed in 3 CONSECUTIVE YEARS.

  • Razer

    Good article Thomas. I found this one of the most inspiring seasons of recent Packer history. Other than the 2010 run, the team overcome adversity and played hard despite the deficiencies. I waivered after the Thanksgiving game but the return of Flynn then Rodgers brought hope.

    As a fan, how could you not be pleased that your team played with heart and determination even while out-manned. Add some talent on defense, get healthy and build on a great 2013 foundation.

    Go Packers!

    • Savage57

      What he said.

      Some more speed would help, too.

      • Dobber

        There were really three or four different Packer teams out there this season. I think that’s the most confusing thing when trying to evaluate where this team actually sits.

        The bottom line is that over the course of the season, the defense was reliably unreliable. There were some very good showings by the defense and some that were utterly demoralizing. I’m begging MM and TT to learn something from this and not sweep it under the rug. Get us a vocal, smart, and effective leader on the defensive side of the ball, please…preferably at safety.

        • Thomas Hobbes

          I think all teams change through out the season; week 1 I don’t think many would have predicted the Packers to be such a balanced offense nor such a terrible defense at the end of the season. Losing Rodgers obviously hurts, but so does Matthews and Cobb/Finley; teams need to constantly adjust to what their opponents are throwing at them and that will change their identity. However, the core foundation of what makes the Packers the Packers is the same and really how you see that is whether you think the glass is half full or half empty

  • Pete Kliman

    We are one of the few playoff teams with plenty of cap space,young players with playoff experience, and will draft #21.

  • http://allpackers.com Nick Perry

    Personally I’d say the Packers are one of the top 8 teams or so in the NFL. Maybe higher because of Rodgers. We saw first hand what happens if the Packers are Rodgerless. Another draft like 2013, adding a Safety or ILB in free agency would be a huge help. There’s several available at both position that would be huge upgrades over who the Packers play now, and wouldn’t break the bank. It also doesn’t take much to be a upgrade over M.D. Jennings. Maybe TT does what he did when he first came here and signs 2 players that could be mainstays in the Packers defense, just like Pickett and Woodson were.

    What Thompson can’t afford is drafts like 2011 and 2012 again. TT is the best Cap Manager in the NFL. This team needs a leader or two on defense and adding the right pieces through FA could go a long ways in helping this team get past the Wildcard or Divisional round of the playoffs. He should be able to find a way to make this happen. Rodgers turned 30 or is about to turn 30 (Sorry, I forget which). With his talent he should have at least 2 more Lombardi Trophies when he hangs up his cleats.

    • Bedroske

      The 2011 and 2012 drafts were not terrible. He needs to hit the first pick and pray he stays healthy! To me, the ’07 draft is still kicking us. Compare 49ers draft to ours that year. Oi vey.

      • Thomas Hobbes

        Yah but also keep in mind the 49ers drafted in the top 10 for nearly a decade, and they are finally paying dividends now. Thompson has had two top 10 picks in his entire Packers career; even if you think Raji and Hawk weren’t worth the picks they were selected at, they both are still football players and not say JaMarcus Russell.

      • http://Allpackers.com Nick Perry

        Are you serious? Your joking with me right? 18 players drafted and 8 remain. For a draft and develop team, one that refuses to partake in FA, cutting 10 of those 18 already equates to a good drafts?

        From a 10 player draft only 4 are left. Sherrod, Cobb, House, and Ryan Taylor. We have no idea about Sherrod, none. So really we have Cobb. From 10 players.

        2012 TT drafted 8 players. Perry, Hayward, Daniels, and Worthy remain, the other 4 gone. I love Mike Daniels and I hope, just like everyone else that Hayward plays like he did in 2012 but we don’t know. Perry’s flashed in a few of the games he’s played in but again, we don’t know because he’s never been healthy for a full year. Worthy had a miserable rookie year up until the time he got hurt. Hey if their all pro-bowl players someday great! But at this point no one would call any of these drafts a success.

        • Bedroske

          A few thoughts I had: A terrible draft is not hitting a single player. If all 18 made the team, 34% of the team would be made of 2 drafts. Part of the draft and develop includes constant competition.

          • http://allpackers.com Nick Perry

            I understand you point of view, It just differs with mine. I may be dead wrong, but my feelings are for a team that drafts exclusively, you need to hit on more than one. Obviously TT feels that same way by trading down all the time for all those extra picks instead of up. If one hit draft choice is the goal for success then trade up.

            Of all the Packers on the 2013 team, not one was made by trade. Only 4 teams in 2013 had teams where at least one player wasn’t acquired in a trade, the Packers, Rams, Titans, and Raiders, not exactly elite company. Just a example but how good would have Anquan Bolden looked in a Packer uniform for what amounted to Nate Palmer?

            At the end of the day I’ve wondered what happens if Clay is playing in this game. Kapernick ran around his side several times for huge gains. Or Shields and Neal are still on the field. I guess we wait and see till next year again.

            • Thomas Hobbes

              Actually recent history has proven that Ted Thompson does indeed know how to trade up; Matthews, Hayward, Franklin and Manning were all picks that Thompson had to trade up for. I think fans got used to Thompson always trading down in the beginning of his tenure because of the cap situation, where he needed more cheap players just to make ends meet. Now that the salary cap is healthy, you are starting to Thompson move up and down a lot more based on talent rather than economics.

              • http://allpackers.com Nick Perry

                I stand corrected, thank you Thomas. For some reason I had last year in my head. BUT, he did end up with some players I think that will help thus teams for years to come. Those 4th rounder will turn out to be excellent pros. I want to see what happens at LT next year.

      • http://Allpackers.com Nick Perry

        I didn’t compare anyone either Bedroske? I said I’d like to see another draft class like 2013 and not like 11 or 2012. FA or two would be helpful too.

  • John

    I have to throw the BS flag on this one. Packers half empty because that’s your own perspective. Cmon. People can be more complicated in that. People can see positives in several aspects of their lives and negatives in others. Yours is a pretty simpleton perspective. As far as Packer fans go. Its pretty realistic to believe that with arguably the best QB in football, Packer fans should have expectations of going deep into the playoffs every year. If was given even an average defense by Thompson. This would be the case. If you are a team like the Vikings or others, without a QB in a QB dominated league, you have no chance and should not have any expectations. Thompson has failed Rogers and Packer fans because of his “Draft and Play” philosophy that will never work in building an NFL defense. There is a reason no NFL team past or present chooses to play young inexperienced sometimes talent less players on defense. It creates too many holes that master QB’s and OC’s exploit. Thompson seems to be the only executive in football that believes in this. As long as Thompson keeps this philosophy or is in charge, there really is no positive outlook for the Packers. Rogers has a very finite career and Thompson is wasting it. You and every other Packer fan will look back at these years and wonder why the hell this team didn’t do better. In the NFL a QB like Roger’s doesn’t come along very often. Packer fans should know this the best. What with the 30 year drought between Starr and Favre. Yes, we have been spoiled with the transition between Favre and Rogers, but there will be dry spells in the future when we have no chance at all. May hay while the sun shines.

    • Dobber

      “Thompson has failed Rogers and Packer fans because of his “Draft and Play” philosophy that will never work in building an NFL defense…..Thompson seems to be the only executive in football that believes in this.”

      If you go back to camp, the only rookie defender expected to contribute to this team immediately was Datone Jones. Turns out his role was nearly the smallest of all those rookies who saw time this season. Why? Because the DL was remarkably healthy in terms of player-games lost. Eddie Lacy was a huge contributor…are you going to diminish his contributions?

      In the modern NFL, with the cap, you MUST be able to get productivity from young players, defensively and offensively. You can’t pay everyone. You can’t keep everyone. Rookie contracts and first renewals are what will keep teams afloat talent-wise and against the cap.

      Even with that in mind, what second-year players were the Packers relying on in their defensive scheme entering the season? Hayward? One of Jennings/McMillian? That’s it.

      If you want a team dominated by 7-8 year vets, that’s fine. But if you have that, the cap won’t allow you to have the CMIIIs or the ARods, at least long-term.

      • John

        Not true in the least. Banjo is too young and inexperience to get significant snaps, same for Boyd, Jennings, Palmer, Mulumba, D. Jones, McMillan, Richardson, Lattimore, Worthy, Perry the last few years, Francois, House, etc. Can’t win with this group of characters getting significant snaps. Can’t win with the next wave of Thompson’s characters getting significant snaps either. I have done extensive research going back to 2008 using PFF grading. There is absolutely no evidence of “Draft and Develop” working. There has been no significant consistent improvement over the years from any of the draft picks. If you would like the benefit of my research, give my your email and I will send you the Excel files.

        • Dobber

          Pay attention to your original argument: it was “young players can’t compete in the NFL”…a blanket statement that draft and develop/play doesn’t work. Now your argument is: THESE young players can’t compete in the NFL. Fundamentally different.

          I’ll stand by my assertion that the majority of the players you’re unhappy with were originally slated for reserve/situational roles. Many played as injury substitutes. Your assertion is that many of them weren’t ready to play. The attrition of an NFL season forced them into contributing roles. You’re right: some of them were NOT ready to play, that’s why they weren’t intendend to be in the roles they ended up in.

        • Rob

          Perhaps the flaw is in using PFF grading. GIGO!

        • Sven

          Packers won the 2010 Superbowl with UDFA rookie shields playing significant time and making big plays in the palyoffs. So there is evidence that you can win with these guys.

          Iam not sure how a person could have evaluated Perry for ” the last few years” as he was drafted in 2012, but i am sure your detailed research has shown this.

          Also francois developed very well in a back up roll, and filled in very well last year, he was injured this year in a game. TT should have known that would happen.

          Boyd and Richardson looked very promising to me i would be interested in data that showed a lack of development in these palyers, who earned playing time late in the season.

      • John

        Your cap reasoning doesn’t work. The Pack had 10 million unused rolled over this year. Another wasted year of a finite Roger’s career. Overpaying Hawk, Finley, Burnett, B. Jones to name a few is the bigger problem. That money should have been used to pay lower cost veteran free agents to plug the holes created by the failed TT policies. Check out Denver, Seattle, New England etc. for GM’s that use all the tools in the tool box successfully.

        • Dobber

          Do you spend every dollar you have in your pocket all the time?

          BTW, Average age of Seattle players: 25.31. Packers: 25.42. If you look at the distribution of ages on the rosters of playoff teams, there’s not much correlation with age. If you want to see the data, I can email that to you, too.

    • http://allgbp.com/ Chad Toporski

      You obviously didn’t read the article, or at least not the whole thing. Thomas’ last line:

      “In truth, as with most things, probably falls somewhere in the middle, the Packers glass was never half full nor half empty, it’s what you make of it.”

      Try comprehending the article before you start throwing your “BS flags” around.

      • John

        I read the article completely. Your very elitest statement about negative and positive views needed to be called out.

        • http://allgbp.com/ Chad Toporski

          *My* elitest statement?

          Obviously you can’t read a byline, either.

          • Rob

            There is a difference between reading and comprehending.

          • Thomas Hobbes

            I like how you are getting the flak for my article

            • Dobber

              I’d like to know how you arranged this Thomas, because I think it could really help my evaluations at work…

    • Bedroske

      What’s your perspective of the demi-god Ron Wolf. He had the greatest QB of that era with the greatest defensive player of all time…and we had one trophy to show for it.
      Superbowl victories are rare. Enjoy the ride.
      Half full/empty? Who cares! Be thankful a glass even exists to be discussing.

      • Bedroske

        Sorry, this comment wasn’t meant to be here. It was meant as a reply to another comment.
        This makes it sound like I’m against the article…I most definitely am not.

    • Thomas Hobbes

      “Packers half empty because that’s your own perspective. Cmon. People can be more complicated in that. People can see positives in several aspects of their lives and negatives in others. Yours is a pretty simpleton perspective.”

      I find this pretty interesting, in no way have I said whether or not I believe the Packers glass is half empty or half full, in fact the last sentence of my article basically states its up to each person to determine that and you’ve proven my point; you are a glass half empty guy and you are now trying to force your opinion on me.

      Secondly, there’s no choice but to play young inexperienced players; the reason why the Packers always have a healthy salary cap where they can resign their own players is because they have made the tough cuts and not signed expensive veteran talent. Sure, the Packers may not be the most experienced team, but I’d rather be inexperienced with options than experienced but stuck with old player like the Cowboys.

    • TC026

      Bla, Bla, Bla, Bla,Bla, Bla, Bla, Bla.
      Reading your comment and others like it make me want to piuk.
      There are 32 teams in this league all going after the same thing.
      I am just happy with above average team with a chance of a Superbowl.
      What if this and what if that, I like the draft and build phylosiphly. What the hell, take your negativity to Minn. or Chicago please.

      • Rob

        Is that implying Detroit has its fill of negativity?

  • Tarynfor12

    “Is the Packers’ Glass Half Empty Or Half Full?”

    Yes…yes it is…because no matter how I see it…I’m still very thirsty and there isn’t enough to quench it.

    • Bedroske

      I say, “who cares”? Be thankful we have a glass to discuss. L.A. doesn’t even have a glass.

      • Thomas Hobbes

        Arguably they will whenever Jacksonville or Tampa finally realize that there’s 3 teams in Florida and the tax savings aren’t as profitable as having an undivided fan base.

  • Art

    As far as having a good/great backup QB it seems that Vick’s replacement wasn’t so bad this year, neither was Cutler’s so bad. And even Smith’s backup in SF a few years ago turned out good enough to get him traded to KC. So don’t discount backup QB’s as college has-beens. As for getting back to the Super Bowl and even winning it, you need a good (Chicago Bears 1985) offense but every winner has had a great defense. Did the Ravens win because of their offense or defense, how about the Giants last two SB wins, and even Favre’s and Rodgers’ Packer teams had great defenses. The current Packers defense is not great, not good and not even feared by opposing offenses. You might choose to blame injuries (injuries hurt the Packers the last bunch of years), perhaps blame the defense coach who may be out of touch with his players, perhaps scheming plays too complicated for his players, perhaps players not playing the position they played in college, etc. But without a good, scratch that, without a great defense the Packers will never return to the SB regardless of how many TD’s and yards Rodgers throws. If TT can pick up a solid FA, a proven player, pay him the damn money to play S, or put him on the line opposite CM, it would be money well spent. What good is scoring a TD only to see the opponent regain the lead on their next drive, or tying a game only to see the opponent come back with a game ending long drive? Too bad MM still thinks that DC is still an outstanding or brilliant or whatever he thinks of DC. Changes, major changes must be made to the defense or, or, or else.

    • Thomas Hobbes

      For Foles, I think give defenses a year to figure him out and see what happens then. As for McCown, he was so good that the Bears decided to give a $126 million contract to Jay Cutler. Kaepernick is not one of the best quarterbacks in the league right now, and benefits a lot from his defense and offensive line. There’s an old adage that if you have two quarterbacks you really have none and this is more true than ever.

      As for free agents, again, if they are free agents it means their original teams decided they weren’t worth the money so that has to raise some flags for you; to team is going to let a star player go and teams have enough cap flexibility to move numbers around to make sure their star players stay (see Dallas).

      • Sven

        There maybe a few FAs worth the investment. The right guy can make a huge difference. TT seems to have a sharper eye for the small fast guys than he does for the big powerful ones, though Bulaga has proven to be a great pick.

        Picket was a Free Agent and despite his age he is the best of the starting 3 down line men. Woodson made a huge impact, as did white in the 90s.

        I hope that TT will investigate all avenues to find the best members for next years team, without mortaging the teams future.

    • Rob

      2010 Packer defense great? Adequate, perhaps good. Yet, there sits the Lombardi trophy. Argument NOT valid.

      • Thomas Hobbes

        Actually, the Packers were ranked 2nd and one of the biggest stories of the Super Bowl was the 1st ranked defense (PIT) going up against the 2nd (GB). I’d call the 2nd best defense in the league great, how about you?

        http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef2010

  • JimR_in_DC

    Hey! I want another glass, damn it! ;)

  • NYPACKER

    I think we are in good shape. ILBer & Safety are positions that need an upgrade if we are to advance deeper in the playoffs.

    • Dobber

      Leadership, attitude and nastiness should be things they look to upgrade through any additions they make to the defense.

      • Bedroske

        Would “assistant defensive coordinator” allow coach KG a chance to fire up the entire squad?

        • Thomas Hobbes

          I’m not sure KG has the experience to really be that effective in a higher pay grade just yet. Maybe in a couple years but he’s only been coaching for 4 years. Mike McCarthy was an assistant for 11 years before he got his first real promotion.

          • Bedroske

            Completely agree. Just dreaming of an angry defense.

      • Thomas Hobbes

        Leadership, attitude and nastiness aren’t things you upgrade, they are things you instill. All NFL players are crazy fast, strong and physical so its not like a NFL player can’t be all those things.

        • Dobber

          How about this: they need to find a couple guys who play at break-neck speed and aren’t afraid to lay the wood. There’s an attitude in that. I don’t mind a LITTLE chippiness, either.

  • Since ’61

    For me the glass is half full. Obviously, this is because of Rodgers, Lacy and the offensive team. I think that probably all of us realize and many of us have already stated either on this or in many previous posts that our defense is the issue. We need better ILBs and safeties. Probably Capers should go, at least in my opinion, and bring in a new DC who brings a sense of urgency to the defense (see my earlier posts from this week). Also, something needs to be done on Special Teams. We often start with poor field or give up too much field position on returns. Like, the defense STs have been a weakness for the last few seasons. Thanks, Since ’61

    • Nostradamus

      Special teams had a constant influx of players due to injuries on both sides of the ball. ANY coordinator would have trouble filling and training roster spots with the 2cd, 3rd, and 4th string players changing week to week.

      So what we have is neither the glass half full NOR the glass half empty, it’s just too damn big for the job.

      Get a glass that fits what we are trying to serve. Our coaches have one, and with a few healthy plaers, they’ll prove it to the fans next August.

      • Nostradamus

        Oh yeah, for those who don’t know; the glass has been, and always shall be an unmet (that’s not a word, is it) expectaton. I don’t have one, and I took great pleasure in watching the entire season unfold. There was some GREAT football alot of folks seemed to miss.

        • Sven

          I would disagree that special teams were weak this season. There were mistakes in that group no doubt. The Bears game was painful in that respect, but that was most specifically punt coverage.

          Think of Crosbey’s kicking this year. Mastay is great at pinning people deep, especially if Bush is downing them. Mica Hyde was a decent returner, and even got a punt return TD. I dont think the packers a punt TD up all season

          I would really have to review everything to know how good or bad ST were. I would also need to look at player turnover in that squad based in injuries.

  • Bedroske

    How incredible that we really only need to focus on improving one side of the ball? Special teams and Slocum: I gotta have more out of you. Injuries can explain offense and defense success. But your job is built on teaching late picks and FA how to man up and beat your guy.

    Again, half full/empty? Just thankful there’s a glass to talk about.

    • Bedroske

      Eddie is only 7,144 yards away from being the all-time team leader. Four/five seasons? :)

      • Thomas Hobbes

        Unfortunately, I don’t think the Packers will get 4 or 5 seasons from Lacy, just by looking at the running style he has and the amount of physical punishment he gets and receives and add to that the injuries he sustained in Alabama and unless he’s the next regeneration freak like Adrian Peterson, I highly doubt he’ll get to his next contract. Thus is the life of a running back, the most disposable commodity in the NFL.

        • Bedroske

          I don’t see Lacy as any more physical than Peterson…along with others who have been in the league more than 5 years. Lacy will hopefully learn to more fully utilize his quick feet.

          5 years would be great. I want 10. Others have done it.

          • Sven

            One thing we learned. There is what people expect and there what Lacy does. He does not seem to be limited by the doubt of others. So dont count him out.

            After seeing Lacy run for over 1100 yards this season, i have new respect for what Green accomplished in setting that record.

          • Thomas Hobbes

            I meant more in lines of Peterson’s miraculous MVP season where he came back from an ACL tear in record time. Your body heals a lot faster when you are younger and as Lacy gets older its gonna get harder and harder for him to come back from injuries quickly.

            Honestly, I would love to see Lacy around for 5 years, but I think either PEDs are gonna have to be legalized or he’s gonna have to change his running style to stop taking so many big hits or his body just isn’t gonna last.

  • JH9

    As a Packers fan, I don’t think it is wrong or unhealthy to root for the Packers to win another Lombardi Trophy every year. If Curley Lambeau didn’t win championships, our stadium wouldn’t be named after him. If Vince Lombardi didn’t win championships, the Super Bowl trophy wouldn’t be named after him. If the Packers franchise hadn’t won thirteen World Championships, the town of Green Bay wouldn’t be nicknamed “Titletown.” This franchise has a historical and proud tradition of winning. Most Packers fans I know want to see this franchise continue on with that tradition and I count myself as one of those fans.

    I also don’t see myself or any other fan who may point out the reasons why this team has failed to seriously contend for a fourteenth World Championship as being unreasonable, contentious or an unfaithful Packers fan. I think it is unfair to portray to those fans who point out the flaws of this team–like our defense this year–as having a “half-empty” mentality. All we want is for the Packers to win and hope that by expressing our opinion on blogs like this one, somehow the combined opinions expressed by writers and bloggers alike get management’s attention and lets them know how we feel. It may, or most likely not, lead to the changes we seek but at least we’re trying to push this team in the right direction to win another World Championship and keep the Packers winning tradition alive.

    • Rob

      Most everyone on this site is rooting for the Pack, makes you no exception. It’s the “throw ‘em under the bus” mentality that often gets ripped, and rightfully so.

      “Push in the right direction”? Don’t you mean in the direction you think they should move. What are your qualifications that management should listen to you?

      • JH9

        With all due respect, the Packers defense ended up ranked 25th out of 32 NFL teams this season. That means 75% of the teams in the NFL played better defense than the Packers did. I don’t think anyone needs a Masters Degree from Football U to point out that the defense sucked this year.

        • Rob

          It doesn’t take a degree to figure out ranking, but you better have some sort of qualification to dictate direction.

          And it is disrespectful to MM, TT, and DC to imply that they are ignorant and clueless as to what is going on with the team. They have just as much and more information than we do, their livelihoods and security of their families are at stake, and they’re greatly more experienced at this.

          Everybody knows the easy solution: get better players. But that is not the reality. Player selection has been and always will be a crap shoot–be it draftees, FAs, or UDFAs. This is the era of parity–CAP spending controls. That means with the best of everything you can still lose.

          This is also the era of offense. Defense does not have to be great anymore, or even good, to win the SB. It just has to be adequate.

          • JH9

            Improve the defense and you will improve the team. If you think that’s the wrong direction…

    • Thomas Hobbes

      I think that’s a valid point, considering the type of team the Packers have, fans should be rooting for them to win a Super Bowl every year. However, when they don’t is when a lot of the arguments come out; I also wouldn’t say that the glass half empty advocates are any louder than the glass half full advocates.

      As for management actually reading any of this good luck, if you really want to influence a football team, do it through their wallet as honestly they could care less about what you or I or even the mainstream media really think.

      • Rob

        And they shouldn’t.

  • John

    Here. I will give you some real research into what needs to be done. This came out of a conversation about what should be done with the 17 FA’s the Packers have.

    Out of 103 DT/NT that played at least 1 game, PFF grades Pickett at 72nd best. Considering there are 49 starting DE/NT, not so good. He actually was grading out as a starter for the first half of the season but got tired and dropped significantly. If resigned, it would be logical to expect the same. I suppose he should play very limited snaps. I would not give him much more than the minimum. I doubt if he would sign for that.

    Of 62 3/4 DE that played at least 1 game, Raji grades out as 3rd worse in football. For those that believe Raji played better at DT/NT his grades since 2009 were -13 for DT/NT and -3 for DE. A grade of zero is just doing your job at an average level. Raji did have a couple of real good years but my guess is we are seeing the real Raji now. He is worth no more then the Minimum, if that. This could be a huge mistake the Thompson might make. Why is it all right to drastically overpay Packer free agents and not pay the market for other teams free agents? If Raji was a free agent off another team, would you pay 5-8 million for him. I think not. Thompson made mistakes paying for future promise when he overpayed, Hawk, Finley and Burnett. Please don’t do it again. What if Thompson used the Raji money to pay Jarius Byrd? Safety problem solved.

    Of the 98 TE that played at least 1 game, Finley grades out at 63. Finley has never graded out per his reputation. Packer management and fans have always greatly overrated him. His estimated value per his grades is usually about 2 million. The packers dodged a bullet with this one. If he hadn’t had the serious injury, Thompson would have drastically over payed him on promise like he did in the past. Can you imagine if the 8 million spent on him last year was spent on a safety or ILB what might have been? Pay him 1-2 million eems reasonable if his neck is healthy or cut him. Makes no difference. The packers do need a TE, but defensive help is a much more drastic need, in comparison, TE is a luxury.

    Of the 162 WR that played at least 1 game, James Jones grades out at 60. That’s a starting grade considering 64 starters for a 2 WR offense and 96 starters for a 3 WR offense. Nelson, Cobb and Boykin grade out at 2, 34, 41 respectively. Impressive. So if money needs to be saved Jones can be let go. If he is willing to sign for reasonable money, IE: 60th best reciever money, by all means keep him.

    Of the 150 corners that played at least 1 game, Shields grades out at 68. His pass coverage grade his .9 and would rank him as the 48th best in coverage. Not bad but certainly not the super star that some say he is. His tackling grade is -4.7 which brings him down. If he can be signed for reasonable money, what an average #2 corner on a team should get paid. Pay him, but please don’t over pay him because he is a Packer. For comparison sake, Williams ranked 44 in all aspects of playing corner, Hyde 46, Bush 56 ( surprised, not a Bush fan ), Hayward 62 ( he ranked 4th best last year but had hamstring problems this year, if he can get over them he is a Gem ), House 93rd.

    Of the 25 FB that played at least 1 game, Kuhn grades out at 3rd. In years past I thought it was silly to be spending 2-3 million on Kuhn. I thought that money was more well spent elsewhere. I was wrong. Please resign him for the 1.8 or so he made this year.

    Of the 45 Centers that played at least 1 game, Evan D-Smith grades out at 8th. Keep him.

    Of the 97 Tackles that played at least 1 game, Newhouse grades out at 15th worse. Since 2008 Newhouse grades out as the worse player on the current roster. Hawk grades out as the 2nd worse. Stop the madness. It shouldn’t take this long for professional coaches this long to figure this stuff out. Get rid of him.

    Of the 98 TE that played at least 1 game, Quarless grades out at 78. Not much difference than Finley’s 63. Granted, they are completely different types of TE’s. Finley is a receiver and Quarless is more complete, although not anywhere near the receiver Finley is. Bostick grades out at 69. Between Quarless and Boskick we may have a Finley. Which isn’t great but with our defensive needs is enough. One other thing, please do not use a high pick on a TE. We already don’t have a chance at winning a Super Bowl because of our horrific defense. Our offense is very good when not trying to cover up for a horrible offense, TE is a luxury. If a draft pick must be used. Please use it after drafting a safety or 2, ILB or 2, DT/NT and DE.

    Seneca Wallace. No need for him. He should un-unretire.

    Of 62 3/4 DE that played at least 1 game, Jolly grades out as 14th worse in football. Consider that there are 30 starting 3/4 DE’s, not so good. I love and root for Johnny Jolly. I think he brings a toughness and nastiness to the Packers that is missing. But, the Pack should only resign him to a Min contract. He may be done anyway with a neck injury.

    Rob Francois only got 13 snaps this year before tearing his right Achilles. He had no snaps in 2012 also. In 2011 he had 166 (approx 80 defensive snaps a game ) snaps at ILB and graded out at 33. Considering there are 47 starting ILB positions, not bad. Much better than Hawk who graded out as the 13th worse ILB in football. Please stop the madness! I am guessing that returning from a torn Achilles is next to improbable, and he never will be the same, and the Packers have enough injured players, so he probably should not be signed.

    Of the 59 3/4 OLB that played at least 1 game, Neal was the 3rd worse. When Neal was drafted in the 2nd round by Thompson, he was considered by many experts as a 6th or 7th round pick and many had him as a rookie free agent. This was a drafting mistake by Thompson. I consider Thompson to be a good drafter, especially lately, earlier in his career he took to many gambles with higher round picks. This was one of them. If Neal can be signed for close to the Min, go ahead and do it. If not, no loss.

    Of the 89 HB that played at least 1 game, Starks grades out as the 24th best HB in football. It seems that he ran better when fresh, although I do wish McCarthy would have given him a few more snaps with Lacy’s ankle hurting him so. Starks coming in with speed after Lacy beats the hell out of the defense is a good game plan. Do more of it. I think Starks also played so well because of contract motivations. By the way, Dujuan Harris’s 71 snaps in 2012 graded out as the 48th best running back in football, not the greatest, but good for an in season free agent, really, he does not deserve all the excitement and high hopes that Packer fans have dropped on him. Starks should be signed at a salary no more than twice the Min. Again, save money for defense. Franklin will be back and another late round draft pick or rookie free agent can be signed, plus Harris.

    OF the 62 3/4 DE, Wilson grades out at 41. Are you sensing a pattern here, Raji 3rd worse, D. Jones 6th worse, Jolly 15th worse, Boyd 18th worse, Wilson 21st worse, Hawk 8th worse, B. Jones 31st worse, Pickett 32nd worse, Neal 3rd worse, Mulumba 8th worse, Palmer 9th worse, House 58th worse, McMillan 10th worse, Jennings 21st worse, Burnett 28th worse, Banjo 50th worse. In a previous analysis I tried to prove that the Packers has failed in there philosophy of “Draft and Develop”. Going back to 2008 I could find no significant consistent improvement of young players. The Philosophy is really “Draft and Play”, which seems to work alright on offense with Rogers running the show, but is a complete and utter disaster on defense. There is a reason why no past or present team has wanted to play only the most supremely talented young, experience players on defense. They leave too many holes that are exploited by NFL QB’s and Offensive Coordinators. Like taking candy away from a baby. Stubborn Ted needs to admit his horrific defensive mistakes and plug the starting and backup holes with judicious lower cost free agent signings, or waste one more year of a finite Roger’s career. After Rogers we may be back to the 30 year no QB Abyss that we are all to much familiar with. Even more so now, the NFL is a QB driven league. Don’t waste even 1 year of the best QB in the leagues career. We will be sorry. If Thompson doesn’t change his ways and sign some or many defensive free agents this year, I believe he should be fired. Schneider from Seattle is an incredible GM, both at drafting and free agents. He cedes power to Carrol at Seattle and might love a chance to come to GB and have complete control.

    Jennings is a restricted free agent and is the 21st worse safety in football. I don’t see the Packers ever being an average defense with Hawk or Jennings on the team.

    Of the 77 ILB who started at least 1 game, Lattimore graded out as the 20th best ILB. He ended the season with two bad games in week 16 and 17. Before those games he was ranked even higher. A keeper at a reasonable price. Pair him with a high draft pick, cut or bench Hawk, and we may see immediate improvement on the defense.

    Of the 116 safeties who played at least 1 game, Banjo was the 52nd worse. Better than Jennings or Burnett but not very good. I like Banjo as a young player. Just don’t give him important playing time. Min contract.

    That’s it. That’s the 17 free agents. If you noticed that not many should be resigned, that is a result of an incredible horrible defense over all. Makes sense doesn’t it, if most of the defense is horrible, you probably don’t want to resign many of them. This defense needs a complete rebuild, and, “Draft and Play” will never solve the problem.

    I don’t think Thompson is a bad drafter. His picks lately have made logical sense and he has not reached or gambled with the higher picks. Stubborn Ted is a horrible GM at plugging holes in the defense with lower cost free agents. I hope he sees the error of his ways but I wouldn’t hold my breath.

    On offense Ted has done an incredible job. 1 QB grades out as a starter and 2 HB, 1 FB, 4 WR, 2G, 1C do also. The two tackles weren’t Teds fault. Bulaga has graded out as a starter in the past, and Sherrod probably would have also. Ted did hurt the team by not having veteran backups at Tackle though. Of the 97 Tackles that played at least 1 game, Bahktiari graded out as the 19th worse in football and Barclay the 29th worse. The praise these two received, especially Bahktiari, confounded me. In their defense, Barclay graded out as the 38th best pass blocker and Bahktiari the 43rd, not bad considering their are 64 starters. Its the run blocking that was a complete failure, Bahktiari was the 5th worse in football and Barclay was the 8th worse. Given that Bahktiari is a rookie, one can hope that he builds up strength in the off season and becomes a complete tackle. In Barclay’s case, he did have an off season to get stronger but didn’t improve his run blocking. It may never happen for him, this next year will be the test.

    Hope you enjoyed this.

    • JH9

      Great post! Thanks for all your work. I hope Packers management realizes how bad our defense was this year and does everything in their power to fix it for 2014!

    • GB fan in DC

      I don’t agree with all of your conclusions necessarily but nice post.

    • Dobber

      It’s one thing to use PFF as a support, but it’s not sabermetrics or anywhere close to it. If you want to make personnel decisions based exclusively on PFF rankings, I hope you don’t do it for the Packers.

    • Rob

      If Archie hasn’t changed his name then he’s got a brother.

    • Thomas Hobbes

      Interesting comment, but I think you need to take the defensive rankings with a grain of salt; the defense is much more interlinked than the offense (see Rodgers and the receiving core being great while the offensive line has been meh). As a result, defensive players most likely than not raise and fall in the rankings somewhat at the same time. I’d wager that the top third of defensive players in any position come from the same set of elite defenses (SF, SEA, CAR, etc).

    • Rob

      Completely ignoring the fact that ALL veteran free agents were at one time drafted rookies and then developed; that most if not all free agents are on the market because their current team considers them not worth the CAP hit; that PFF grades may mean little or nothing because they are statistical but not analytical.

      • Thomas Hobbes

        Not all free agents are drafted and not all are developed; you and I technically could apply to be NFL players and would fall into that category. More realistically, Sam Shields, Tramon Williams, Jamari Lattimore, Evan Dietrich-Smith were all free agents that were not drafted and the vast majority of free agents have not been “developed” by any means; Jordan Miller, who played on and off the Packers squad has been on 4 teams over the last 3 years but I wouldn’t say that’s he’s stayed long enough at any place to be really “developed”. A ton of veteran players were not drafted and were not seriously developed either, only they aren’t big names so you don’t hear about them but they compose the majority of the free agent pool any year.

        • Rob

          Should it then be “draft and undraft and develop”?

          • Thomas Hobbes

            Honestly for the Packers it is, McCarthy even mentioned it during the offseason/preseason that undrafted players compose a sizable proportion of the team every year.

    • Stroh

      PFF works on a very basic level only. Please don’t try to use it to justify anything else! They don’t even know a players specific responsibilities on any given play. Its a joke to try to use it for much of anything!

      • Thomas Hobbes

        I agree, but it’s a starting point. No one outside the team will ever know a player’s responsibilities so all analysis or interpretation will have this confounding factor, you just have to live with what you can get.

  • Razer

    I’ll stand behind my more than half full comment but I want to add one idea into the discussion that troubles me and may hamper our progress. We all recognize the noticeable lack of talent on defense and because of TT’s approach, we wait for the results of the draft. You basically need to go back to Clay Matthews to find a first rounder who consistently contributes to this team. By and large, you need your first rounders to be studs if you want to matchup to the best teams. Ours have either under-performed or have been watching from the sidelines. One hit in six picks over five years is not good. The saving grace has been a decent number of hits in the 2nd round.

    While I have been supporting Capaers as our DC, I have come to the realization that our defense only has one star, Clay Matthews. While a bunch of fans would like him cut, I would put Tramon Williams in the very good category. After that, it is blue collar, workman players many of them low rounder or undrafted. I believe that we will get better next year BUT we can’t afford to miss on these first rounders. Missing on the stars will lower the ceiling for this team, in essence, giving us a smaller cup.

    • Thomas Hobbes

      The draft is always been a hit or miss proposition, even in the 1st round where all the money is at. Arguably, Thompson’s only bust in the 1st is Justin Harrell when you consider the actual success rate of 1st round draft picks. I’d say any 1st round player that is still on the team after 3-4 years is a pretty decent player.

  • http://grizzlymitch@bresnan.net grizzlymitch

    Half full for sure as we did win the division with the team that we had this year. Secondly, TT, how can you start a season with Wallace as your backup quarterback? He has never had any success in this league. Any backup will be an improvement and I don’t think that Tolzien or Flynn are that guy. Get rid of both of them. Thirdly, the defense sucks. Capers couldn’t coach a little league defense. I’m sick of hearing that if Mathews is hurt we’re done. Mathews has been hurt a lot! We need a scheme that will feature more than one guy. Nothing has changed on this terrible defense for the past three years. Get rid of that bum! With a simple star aliegnment and some veteran leadership, this team could legitimately win it all, no question.

    • Thomas Hobbes

      “Get rid of that bum! With a simple star aliegnment and some veteran leadership, this team could legitimately win it all, no question.”

      That’s what the Texans thought when the signed Ed Reed, so it’s also not that easy.

      On a more interesting note, if you do fire Dom Capers, who are you going to replace him with? The tradition for the Packers is to promote from within, but I’m not sure any of the coordinators are experienced enough to make the jump to defensive coordinator. Of the “free agent coaches”, the big name that makes sense would be Wade Philips, so I ask you Wade Philips>Dom Capers?

      • http://grizzlymitch@bresnan.net grizzlymitch

        Capers defensive ideas are outdated and predictable. I can assure you that there are great young coaches out there that would do a great job. Are you suggesting some present coach. Most of these guys have all been passed through the league enough. We need fresh ideas to rejuvenate our defense because it is stale and very predictable and incredibly slow in many areas.

        • Thomas Hobbes

          “Fresh ideas” was the rise and the fall of the wildcat offense; sure you might see a lot of success with it for a couple years but once teams see you doing it and start to plan against it you realize why everyone isn’t using it. The same goes with the defense, the 3-4 blitzburgh style defense is definitely old, but it’s proven effective over the years. The same can’t be said for say the 46 or the old school 5-2 defense.

      • 1stngoal

        I’m on the fence about Capers, but if they did let him go, I would hope the Packers would give serious consideration to Wade Phillips…

        • Thomas Hobbes

          Philips has the same track record as Capers essentially for running defenses, some years they are very good and some year they are very bad.

    • Dobber

      “Any backup will be an improvement and I don’t think that Tolzien or Flynn are that guy. Get rid of both of them”

      Isn’t this what got the Packers into their backup QB mess this season in the first place?

      • Thomas Hobbes

        Pretty much, or you could get Brian Brohm

  • Icebowler

    Our D is so bad, John took it out of Rodgers name.

  • larry valdes

    Right now, I think we have one of the best offense of the league without a doubt why we’re not able to get a td with first and go from the 9 yard is beyond me I don’t know why lazy and starks were not in the play but I bet you my a.. that would he would have score after watching the vikings game. I was sure that we were one of the best offense of the league but Rodgers, got injury and we all know what happened regarding the status of the defence when we lost mawteus we we lost the only play macker that we have.mr thomson disregard for the need of safety completely I don’t understand his thinking if you wash others winning teams .When they lose a lb or a dl they go and sign one but not he goes and sign a wr to the taxi squad

  • 1stngoal

    I say half full. The injuries this year definitely took their toll, and not just to #12. We can only imagine how different the results would’ve been with a healthy Finley, Cobb, Matthews, Bulaga, ect, ect…

  • J204

    Glass is half full cause they have star QB and will be in the playoffs as long as they have him no matter what. Defense will improve because I think MM (Dom if hes around) and Ted will be on the hot seat if there is no improvement on the defensive side of the ball. Need good safety play in NFL unless your pass rush is relentless which GB’s isn’t.. Maybe need to pick your poison, which one do you upgrade this year? Probably focus more on the trenches and front 7, that can negate a below average/poor secondary.

    • Thomas Hobbes

      I’ve always argued that the two most important positions in a 3-4 defense are not the nose tackle or the outside linebacker but the DE and the safety. Thompson has added a lot of picks to the defensive line with Worthy, Jones and Daniels, so its probably time to focus on the safety position.

  • Icebowler

    We need both an ILB and SS who can both cover a TE or big WR who’s route goes over the middle or down the middle seam.